F-Body Europe

Sounds like that to me to! I don't know why the Rustangs never want to play and the ones that do get a beat down by most of us. So I don't really see a need to pump up our chests with a little smack talk, seems to be a waist of time.

Well things are realized when you get beat or blow a motor. Which is just a matter of time. I have been on both sides of the fence dont much like loosing so I mod up and something goes wrong blown clutch motor or something will give you a setback it gets a bit expensive but if you wanna really play then be prepared to really work on the car and save some $$$$.

That is so true- I just wish I would have listened sooner!

I'll be really original and agree with the cubic dollar statement as well .

I dont see the R&D and the 8 sec Fbodies your speaking of, but no doubt anything is possible with stubborness and crates of green backs.

You can do many things with the right amount of money. We all know that! There are a good number of LS1s in the 9s, and a few in the 8s, but they are not that fast without SERIOUS money in them, and builders who truly know what they're doing.

Dont get ahead of yourself. A good number in the 9's? A few in the 8's? At the last North vs South Shootout they had 2. 4 total said they would be there, and 2 of them broke before the show. George Baxter and Madman. That would be 1 LT1 and 1 LS1. Neither one of the 2 that showed were close to the 8's.

I think it would be freaking outstanding if 100's of them showed up and ran DEEEP in the 8's, but facts is facts. ARE's LS1 that went 8.57? was turned into a Gen 1 SBC and then promptly put on Ebay. Overton's LT1 that ran 9.0hs NA is in the process of getting a big block put in it.

Where am I going by dragging this out? (I dont know ) except that them boys have deep pockets and dont see to much R&D or parts coming down the pipe. Getting 1000hp out of LS1 should be as easy as falling off a log and writing a 15k check for the turbo setup, then you would be just like the 1000hp Supra that can rock any dyno in the world and still get nowhere fast.

Fast 4th gen F bodies that prowl the street are abundant and downright awesome. Fast 4th gen F bodies that rule the 1/4 are like the 3 legged bearded lady. We have heard about them, but seldom see them.

The recipes are tried and true and seen on any dragstrip on any given weekend. The fords are running small blocks (around 420-470 cubes) and the chevys are running big blocks (500+ cubes) both get the same power/times, and both win fair shares on any given day.

I wont take anything from the LT1/LS1/LS6 but it will never get the same backing. There just isnt a solid enough foundation or interest in it for it to be anything more than hot street motor. All it takes is money to build something, but if there is no money in it, then nobody is gonna make the investment to begin with. Without the pioneers there will be no real speed parts. Look at the pathetic 2V modulers in the mustang GT. Worthless excuse for a motor, but with Ford paying out millions in prize money thru the Fun Ford Weekends/NMRA events, there is money to be made so people try and fix it up.

Sorry for the novel, it just kinda happened

Rob

Believe it or not Rob, it's very true. Go to this link, if you want, and see for yourself. There are plenty of videos. If I'm missing something, please fill me in.

http://ls1tech.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=89

Like I said before. In a few years, maybe even 5 years, the R&D for the LS1 will be awesome. The 6.0L iron block and 6.0L aluminum LS2 blocks are now available at affordable prices. The major draw back to the Camaro is not the engine but the chassis. The front to rear weight ratio is terrible even though the engine sits under the windshield. That is another drawback. Prices are becoming cheaper and cheaper. Look at the cylinder head development alone. A few years ago, ported LS6 heads cost $2500-$3000. Now, Patriot Performance sells them for $1700 without a core charge. 6.0L heads are now available for around the same price, ported, and flowing 330 cfm on the intake side. The Mustangs are way ahead of us and it is just a damn good challenge. Will I ever run 7's in a Camaro? Who knows. I will have to see how life goes and the availability of money. BTW, my fathers 406 small block (2-bolt main) with a butt load of nitrous, 34 Ford Coupe, runs 5.30's in the 1/8. The chassis is solid but the engine is a few throw together pieces that was put in until his new engine is built. I have pics of the car but I have to find a way to load them on this site. Right now they are in the process of building a 95 Camaro Super Gas car. Of course it will have a BBC on nitrous. I just want to see how the chassis is setup so I can get some ideas. You can make all the power in the world, but if you can't put it to the ground it is usless. Good luck on the Mustang and have fun running 9's. It will probably take me a few more years, maybe never, to get there.

Don

Most of the R&D for the LS(insert number) is coming from the road race side of the house, or? The LS1 heads have never been slackers. 330 on the intake at I'm guessing .600? That is pretty decent, but a set of ported Victors will out flow them every step of the way (chevy version not ford victors, even though they will also).

I wont even get into the chassis thing, as it is well know what I believe.

The ford explosion happened due to the massive amounts of money that people put up for the events. Hell there was hundreds of thousands up just the modulars. Without that carrot dangling why would anyone try to bandaid up a questionable platform?

Jack I will concede to you that there are more than 2 LS1's in the 8's, but I will add to that, "WHY?" Those cars cant have been made that fast just for bragging rights on the internet, the owners had to have wanted to go racing. The "worlds fastest 4th Gen" would not only not win, but "wouldnt even make the field" of 95% of the weekend heads up races.

I can show you more info than you would care to see about Kyle Huttons 69 Camaro. Stock style suspension, on a 10.5" tire, with a rude/crude BBC. #1 qualifier at San Antonio Clash of the titans with a 8.01@170-180. Brandon Dominey with a 411CI SBF #2 qualifier 8.04@180. These guys are the Big guns in a field of Big guns. Just in lil bitty Oklahoma on a monthly shootout if your not running 8.40's you might as well keep it on the trailer if your hearts set on winning.

Dont take this like I'm bashing GM, as I'm not. I still think the 4th gen is the slickest thing going. Most people will never run the numbers in the magazines/televisions/internet, and truth be known I will probably never be competitive. But my problem will not because the equipment isnt capable it will be because the driver sux or is to poor to buy the stuff that IS available.

I just thought you were doubting the existence of such cars running such times. I don't care about whether the LS1 is the fastest engine in the country, 'cause I know it's not. I think we can all agree, though, that it (the LS(X) motor) has come a long way.

that is another reason why they will not become anything more than a novelty. For example: (yeah its a Ford version, but the Chevy is the same, only the names change to protect the innocent).


with the exception of the heads all parts are from the identical company at almost identical prices.

Yates/Victor/Neal/AFR/Brodix/Dart heads with the solid block with the same companies rotating assembly if you buy used/smart you can assemble a motor that puts out 7-900hp NA bullet proof style for less than 10K. Add 2k for a 250-500hp fogger w/fuel system and you are well over 1000hp SAFELY ( I cant it enough... DURABLE/SAFE/REPEATABLE )

12K on a LS1 or LT1 will get you probably pretty close to that

another 10k on suspension with 3-5k on drivetrain, then lets say a safe 5k in misc and you have 25-27k TOTAL invested. The cars typically are less than 5k for a roller so now its 30-32k. What did a 4th gen cost?

How many people have put 25K into a 4th gen Fbody? probably thousands.

Now look over that list again and see how many are single digits.

That same combination above has put thousands of SBC/SBF cars deep in the 8's.

To beat on that poor dead horse some more, I cannot agree that the LS1 has came along way. Its been out in some form or fashion since 1997. In almost 8 years the best it can do is run mid to high 8's.

You may not care if its the fastest, and that is why it never will be (not that its all YOUR fault ) But the problem is NOBODY cares if its the fastest and that is the problem. Team Mopar put a stock block neon SRT4 in the 8's to prove it could be done, and NOBODY cared. What does that have to do with anything? Nobody re invents the wheel anymore. Mopar can still get it done with the Hemi, Ford still gets it done with the Windsor, and Chevy still gets it done with the Gen 1 SBC or BBC.

Besides the fact that I like to talk, there is no reason for me to keep posting on this, on a street oriented message board. I'm sure that most sane people can tell the differance between street and strip and probably could give less than a rats ass about running single digits (or running 1/8-1/4 at all). I just like spreading the "good word" and keeping the facts straight.

Atleast as straight as my distorted opinion allows
Rob

Hehe, I love this thread. You got the F-Body Guys hatin on Mustangs. I just want to throw my .02 out there. Rob H, from what I can gather, has been referring to stock suspended heads up cars. In my eyes, I'll give more credit to the guy that can build a low 8 high 7 sec car that runs on 10.5 slicks with stock suspension. I'll give him even more credit if he can do it without putting his car in the wall. Anyone can take a Camaro and throw an insane LS1 in it, back half the car, and run low ETs. But I think the key here is that most of the fast LS1s are NOT stock suspended cars. They're back halved, tubbed cars runnin 4 links out back, of course the suspension works. The real trick is to do it with a stock suspension.

That wasnt the intent, but I guess it was bound to happen.

Your exactly right about what I meant. The 10" tire freak show is where its at.

I've been enjoying this for quite a while and finally decided to throw my 2 cents in. First of all, as far as the LS1 having been out long enough to have as much R&D as they are get, I call BS. The basic Ford small block has been out since 1965 when the 289 came out. That is almost 40 years!!! There should be a lot of parts by now. The LS1 has been around less than 8 years, what will be there in another 30 years. Additionally, the Mustangs that most people are racing has been around about 20 years, as opposed to 10, 7 for the LS1. The Mustang has a better suspension design for drag racing, but how many in the 8s are running stock suspension???? None. They are using the stock mounting locations, with a LOT of bracing. Several of the Camaro's in the 8's are not back-halved, but their suspension is not stock either.

Bottom line, they are both good cars and can be made very fast. To run the same speeds cheaply, the Mustang is the way to go. 10 years from now, that will probably not be the case. Another 10 years of LS(X) production and there will be enough of them out there to get the power cheaply. Ford folks will always be Ford folks and GM guys will always be GM guys. All I know is that I never though I would see an American V8 that I thought was better than the old small block Chevy, but I have. It's the LS1. The potential in that engine is phenomenal and the surface has just been scratched. There's a lot more to be had from it. The next few years will be fun to watch. Besides the Ford vs GM rivalry is what makes this so much fun. Right Nick.

I'm glad you decided to add. Very thought out, and I agree with you point for point...just about. If you dont mind (too late as I have posted already ) I would like to comment on a couple of things.



The only Ford motors that get any loving from the fast crowd are the 351W and the occasional misguided 302 guy. I see where your coming from and to a point I agree with you. Just like the SBC.



Again I agree with you as the fox chassis has been out forever, but most of the Mustangs are either 87-93 or 94-present probably about a 75-25 split, but hardly 20 years. The average 4th gen can be anywhere from a 93-02, but to be fair the 3rd gens had the same basic package, so really there is no differance in age.



I hope you meant that tongue in cheek. If anyone thought they had factory bushing still in you misread the stock "style" suspension part. The bracing is nothing more than a cage. My car has zero bracing in the rear except the rear brace for the diff.



I cant argue that either except that therein lies the problem.



You heard the old saying, build it and they will come? Well if there is nothing built why would the LS1 come? What I mean is there is no incentive to engineer the LT1/LS1 for drag racing. It cant do anything better than the motors before it. There are no classes, no anything, and that is why in my worthless opinion the LS(X) will drift off with the Corvette, and as it changes with it there will be less and less that can be carried over to a car that no longer exists (aka Fbody).




RIGHT ON!!! but (there always is a "but" huh ) do you suppose the LS(X) will live on in '07 when supposibly the Camaro returns? Or will there be a new flavor of the week? I have no clue because the GM bigwigs cut me out of their Email contact list.

Even though its fun to talk back and forth about it, it boils down just like Montgomery Gentry says "You do your thing, and I'll do mine"

Rob

I know I like beating a dead horse, but I don't think the LS(X) motor is going anywhere soon. I'll just wait for time to tell.

That's all I have to say about that!

I can almost guarantee that the LS(X) motor is not going anywhere soon, except to get better. The surface has just been scratched. They are using it in their trucks, SUVs, Cadillacs, Pontiacs and Chevrolets. (I wonder what happened to Buick since they are the only division left out.) The GTO is going to offer 400 happees and the Vette is going up to about 450. Based on my sources, the final decision has not been made on the FBody yet, but they are talking about the top of the line being in the vicinity of 450 happees since the Vette is supposed to be around 500 by that time. That is without having to hang a blower or turbo on it. More Performance has one you can buy right now that dynos at 750 without forced induction or nitrous, even though it is expensive. Magnacharger recently came out with a blower for the Vette and is working on one for the FBody. This baby is just learning how to walk. It will be something to see when it learns how to run.

I'll run you. Just tell me which event you want to do it.

Naz

He will not be here next year so, he asked if I could keep you guys in check. I will try LOL.