F-Body Europe

Just want to say, all of you are getting way overboard here again.
Relax. Calm down.
How comes, lately we can not discuss ANYTHING on this board without a few people getting mad one way or the other?

Fact is: DMSB rules exist for Race events.
They did exist in 2002. They did exist in 2001. They did before and they will after.

A way around is to eliminate the word 'race' out of the discussions, call it Test and Tune, call it Runs, and we do not have a 'racing event'.

I only got the track in Bitburg with this agreement.
I tried to explain this to Tony, to Don Leemker.

I had to tell Garry to take the osl-page off for one day to change some of the wording from race to test & tune, because the webpage was discoverd by officials, read and watched.
This resulted in Tony getting mad, even I told him before that I had to, to safe the third and fourth event.
Therefore Don Leemker has a oslracing.com page now, with racing all over the page, no ajustments from our view possible.
And Don told me several times: get the racing permit for Bitburg, we must be able to do what we want.

No. We must not.

None of them, Tony nor Don, did want to understand when I tried to explain that I will not ask for a racing permit, I do not want a racing permit, and forget about this racing permit for Bitburg, we will never get it!

Hell, they did not even stick to the simpliest rules they implemented themselves, and turned around on me several times. So how do they want to go with a national racing permit? Sorry, but NHRA does not apply, only its GERMAN equivalent. And sad is, they did not even apply to the
NHRA rules in a lot of details...

Do I have the right to save my good reputation/name to be dragged through the Mud in germany???

We can either go 'Test&Tune' and leave it as it is, or we can go 'Race' and get the permits and stick to the rules...
that is up to all of you!
But nobody tell me I 'must' do and throw a knive in my back!

So why we don't just discuss for now and see which of the rules are adoptable for us because they are really making sence - instead of just saying:
I won't come, because your rules apply to everybody and I can't get exceptet from the rule no more because of I am a special friend off .... (insert a name)

My point just is: if we say in front we need to not getting over 98dB - then nobody needs to go over. So how many cars did exceed the noise level and got pulled out? If 150 drivers can meet this requirement, why should we allow the 151th to drive without a muffler?
It would not be fair to the other 150!
If we say no passengers allowed on the race,
if we say helmets required for everybody, or
if we say slicks and NOS belong into the ET instead
into the PR - because those are not designed for the
public road and this is what PR means...
where is the problem???

Now if somebody is using slicks or NOS or whatsoever anyways on the public roads... I am not a cop,
I just say what the law says and that's it,
and I can back up everything what I say. At least for
the german side... where we are at the moment.

To be honest: My main interest is not to please any individual, not to personally gain any money, but
(believe it or not!)
to establish this type of motorsport in germany.
For the fun, for now and for the future generations,
at low cost for the drivers (not 300€/Hockenheim, Bruce).
My goal is high: to have permanent tracks like in
the states, where you can go and drive every weekend if
you want to.
But therefore I need to set cornerstones now. I need
people backing me up. I need people understanding WHY we
have to go with german rules and not other countries rules
which do not apply here.
(and except a few adjustments, they ARE the same)
I want to make the dragracing sport as normal and accepted
like jogging and soccer in germany.
With all of your help, we together can write history.

I think you will have problems getting this started. There is about 5 people on this board that would show up. I remember all the problems with the helmet rule. Lets talk about inspection who is gonna do it and what rules will apply. So this is something totally diffrent than OSL so what is it? Now it is 300+ miles one way and get told I cant race because I do not have a stupid yellow sticker that says whatever. Now if you decide what rules make comman sense and could make a safe/ fun enviroment that would be a start. However to just get on the board and say someone cant race in a class because he is to fast or does not have a sticker is BS. I am not huffy or puffy but if you think there will not be violaters of rules just because there are rules your wrong. Rules/laws are made to be broken
ie speed limits are broken daily by most drivers. I am not saying it is right to speed. Prohibition was another stupid law no-one can drink broken by the same people that passed it. It comes down to getting caught and being able to enforce rules fairly for everyone. I agree there should be rules for safety and would be willing to help. But to lay down the law and point fingers will get you no where with me. Not that I am above the rules or laws. I plan to upgrade safety equipment before you guys told me just with races being a week apart it is kinda hard to get a rollbar installed. Just A reality check for ya.

OK, I don’t know what the plan is here, but it does appear that things are getting a little confusing. That’s the problem with non-direct correspondence, it’s hard to tell the serious items from the joking ones (no visual feedback). Would it be possible to set up a meeting and just talk out some of the thoughts and ideas concerning test & tune and racing for next year? I for one would like a chance to get in a little more racing than I did last year. I’m not very confident about OSL’s prospects for next year (at least in Germany), and if someone else is willing to give it a shot I’m willing to listen. Things don’t happen by themselves, whether it’s time, sweat, money or something else, everyone can participate. Can we work on establishing a common goal and then determining how we’re going to get there?

Garry for your information I've got every safety feature on the car minus the cage. You haven't seen the car in months so how could you know. My car IS the safests out of everyones right now guaranteed. I didn't build it up for the sake of going fast alone. I want to survive in the event I do make a mistake.

Maybe you took it the wrong way but the whole purpose is to have fun I understand the safety issues. However once folks start seeing how they have to keep dumpin money to do this it'll take the thrill factor out of it quick and it will be left to those WHO do have cash. That's why illegals are the best thing goin even though not the safest. Run what ya brung period take the lumps at your own risk.

Stateside? Not concerned w/ it. I'm not there. But when I do return it'll be a trailor queen or a true light to light warrior because it's too damn expensive to run tracks back home (talking road tracks). 1/4 tracks too long of a damn line to wait just to run 11 secs. IMO

Squirl. Good luck because Bruce is right for the most part. Nothing is impossible however but you have to look at from the point drag racing has been around even over here. The question is why hasn't it taken off if it's so fun to do in the 1st place?
This should've been around before our time instead of it now trying to take off.

That's why illegals are the best thing goin even though not the safest. Run what ya brung period take the lumps at your own risk.

The street scene is getting bigger because of all the rules to race over here. For instance any Friday night in N/burg 500+ cars never had that many at a OSL event. If you think they have there mods listed in the fahrzuegbrief your wrong.

I was merely stating my opinion on the matter. I think that it should have stayed like it was, personally. It will not be as fun any more as far as I'm concerned. Lose the formalities.

Ok, I understand what you guys are saying, but some people will be discouraged I think..

If I have understood what most people are saying correctly, the bottom line is that if the rules are too restrictive, Bitburg (or wherever) will fail. Drag racing in Germany is about the stage where it was in the US in the early 50s, except the cars are faster. If you want to run the races like the big time (NHRA/IHRA), they you are going to have to have a better track and facilities. Many of the tracks in the states have learned the same thing. They couldn't survive with just the official races. They have races almost every weekend with much more liberal rules, basically run what you brung. Back in the early 50s there were very few rules and they were mainly to determine the classes. Safety rules are great, as long as they are reasonable and not too oppressive. In some ways it really doesn't make sense to be too restrictive. Such as, I can put the top down in my car, get on the autobahn and run as fast as I want to which is significantly faster than Hawk's fastest speed this year. That is with other cars, curves, hills, trucks, etc. But at Bitburg, I had to have a helmet and I was running in the low 14s at about 110. Not much logic there. Make it too restrictive or too expensive and it will die. The racing won't die, it will just happen on the streets. The semi-organized racing will die. When NHRA started, it wasn't to set up a bunch of rules. It was to help get the racing off the streets. That is why they had the support of a lot of the towns and police.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Do not worry about the dog getting sick from eating birds feathers when the bird is still flying.

Here some thoughts to your posts of the last days...

> quote: ...They couldn't survive with just the official races. They (State site tracks) have races almost every weekend with much more liberal rules...

Did I already post the rules for Test and Tune? No - I did not.
Which would be the liberal form of racing...

I want to discuss this to KEEP the Bitburg Fun as it is. For the individuals
I do not plan big changes. Bruce knows what he got to do...not worried about him,
but we got to set a standard for others coming afterwards, thinking to put NOS in
the car and slicks on and go faster WITHOUT thinking safety and go on the
Autobahn (saying "well, Bruce does it too and so can I") and can not handle the car,
wreck or get busted... good for our image? - don't think so. Next thing we get shut
down because the police says we give bad samples...

So I suggest to divide the Bracket Runs in two classes, as existing by the
DMSB rulebook already:

PR (Public Race) is basically a Street Car, Stock Car, as normally
registered and driven on the german side (or Stock US cars), with slight
modifications possible "IF" they are registered and written in the
Fahrzeugbrief, i.e. spoilers, different (Street)tire sizes etc.
(I know US have no Fahrzeugbrief and don't plan to ask for getting one)

ET (Advanced or "call it what you want" suggest a kicking name please!)
would be any car like above with: Nitrous, Slicks, stripped interior, or not
registered mods, or cars without tags or cars faster than 10s. It is to be
understood here that german cars in this class would not be able to register
for the public roads, while US cars do. So in this ET would also be the
"slower than 10s cars" if they can not meet PR requirements. That simple.

We had already different classes - just by time. Here it would be the type
of mods besides the time criteria, for one to be fair to the german drivers,
for the other because there will be a lot more germans in the end than US.

Since it is bracket... should it matter if not gaining speed with the mods?
For the >faster< than ...s cars we need to agree there need to be more attention
to the safety than to the slower ones, ... don't think this is subject of international
discussion?

Helmets. If I say, helmets are requirement, there will be (disinfected)
rental helmets. I will buy them. Any of you ever been at a go-kart track
started discussion there...? Plan the same. Bring your own or rent one.
This is just one of the main safety issues in Europe to keep insurance coverage.
In some states you can ride on a bike without a helmet, here you can not.
Again, I will not ask for a helmet for one and not for the other.

> quote: Even a lot of the Germans couldn't comply with those rules. If that
is the kind of drag racing you want to do, you will eliminate a lot of
people.

no, we will just group them in the right kategories (classes) see above. I
do not plan to eliminate anybody. And for Test&Tune not all of those rules
will apply as spelled out.

> quote: I can understand the problem with the insurance and there may not be
a way around it. But I think it would be better if you can find a way around
it. Hopefully you will be able to figure a way around the problems.

The way around I found 10 month ago and been preaching all along:
Do - but do not name it - "racing" ...

> quote: LOL, I went to the site, and it sure is a pretty site in german. They
may be the german equivalent to the NHRA/IHRA but the rules are a little out
there. By the above rules there might be 5 people on this site that would
pass tech.

No, they will all pass if you group the classes right, and meet basic
(either NHRA or DMSB) safety requirements. see above. For the test&tune we
will not have to stick tight to the DMSB... adopt the common sence rules only.
I cut a deal here for the US ID card holders (at the test&tune) only:
For any mods you want to go by the NHRA rules - do it! But go and order
your NHRA rulebook (incl. the download updates) and
show me where you refer to the NHRA rules. No trick though, I will have one
also, and I can read both, german or english. But when you prefer to stick
to NHRA, don't come around and say you want to pick the easier DMSB
rules on something else on your car. (that also includes the rear ends...
the person I mean should know what I am talking about )

Excemptet from this deal will be the helmets for everybody, (again: insurance)
Nitrous and Slicks will stay in the advanced group for the Bracket,
grudge it won't matter.

> quote: The only thing that stood out to me in the post (couldnt read the
site) is that it almost looked like random rules picked because they looked
smart, but not in relation to the speed/type of car.

sorry but ... I can read german...

> quote: What kind of liscensing requirement are there? Any? I just went to a
9sec lic test (not for me) and that is quite a procedure.

There is licenses required for anyone racing, matters on the type and speed
of vehicle, four categories with subcategories. If the driver is not holding
a racing license himself, the event organisator may issue an event license
for the event only. Both costly. And again: not required for Test&Tune !!

> quote: Im not trying to put the full court press on squirrel or garry, but
unless all you guys have the rules wrote out in some form that you can
completly understand, there are gonna be alot of disappointed people.

working on ... do not want anybody being disappointed but means, read the
requirements in front and don't show up and say you did not know...

> quote: ...The rules are a GREAT thing, and safety is paramount...
single car into the top class is utterly stupid, and shows alot of misguided
thoughts in the FIA and OSL, regardless of the safety weenies crying that
there will be blood scattered up and down the 1320. I am not
doubting/attacking you (garry) or the squirrel thing, I'm just making my
observation. I'm done making problems now. Go enjoy your races...

Thanks, we will enjoy... says the "thing" All I try is to get you
understand: run the stock cars as they are in the RP, and for the modded
cars grouped into the ET check the safety issues individually, some mods
do not require any attention, others a little, some more. Just a way to
make them "legal", safety is paramount as you say, and the thought is: if
there is only one real bad happening, we will be in the news for sure.

> quote: I guess I should not have gave you a ride in the Hawk Silke!!!!
Here are my thoughts I agree with safety. ... Please post the rules and
make a couple decisions and I will let you know if I will be attending.
BTW I do not have a fahrzug breif nor do I plan to get one. Not required for
US forces serving overseas. So if that is what it takes to public race then
I will be staying home.

Hey, I enjoyed that ride. And what you are worried about? Is your
ride unsafe? Then I should/would not have gotten into your car!!!
You will not need a Fahrzeugbrief, you will just be grouped into the
advanced class for the Bracket, since you fall into that by several criterias and
your car is not comparing to a local stock car.
Technically there could be a DMSB-Paper prepared for the cars without
Fahrzeugbrief with the Mods listed but I am not really planning on doing
this.

> quote: Who is gonna inspect/enforce gotta feeling there is only a
couple people that know what they are looking at. I think your Toyota will
pass though. How many people wanna see ya race that???

It will be somebody knowing some about cars... not me yupp, that Toyota
was possibly the only car with a clean title book (Fahrzeugbrief), but I do
not plan to race it anymore, it already had enough fun.

> quote: I guess that would be me. What are we trying to do here??? Seems like
I am being singled out.

No, you are not. Unfortunately you are just the fastest on this board - and
we are proud of you beating the beetles!

> quote: Got the safety loop. Planning on the bar/cage thing also. I guess
there are opinions on this but are you doing a test and tune or a race? ...
If you do not think they are running Nitrous on the street your wrong.
I will be running 10's wheels up in the spring.
No more power but more traction. I did run 138MPH with I
could easily slow that to 134.99. I have a complete firewall so I should be
ok to run 10's if I read it right. So we will be testing and tunning next
year now tell me the rules you plan to follow.

Plan is Test&Tune (like we had 2002) with maybe a Final Race... not sure
yet. Try to get Track Racing enforced and legalized so Street Racing will
not be necessary. Know that there are some Nitrous on the street,
but I always been telling you that it is wrong because not legal. And it never
bothered you.
Will get the rules researched and together before Christmas?
Would that give enough time? First race, (uups sorry) = T&T, won't be before
April...
For the grudge runs you may still race whoever you want. The separation
would apply to the Bracket runs only.
And there won't be 300€ for the weekend - I do NOT want it to be some
commercial thing like others were talking about.

> quote: I think there will be a lot less interest if we can't just race for
fun. I think that is what most people want. Something like Sembach and
Bitburg. I know some want to go all out, and have prepared race cars, but
most don't have the money or interest for all that. Just my 2cts.

Who said we will not race for fun? The hole event will be like the past, 90%
of the people may not even notice any difference...

> quote: Just like Jack said. That's why I'll be living at the Ring both Rings
that is. Cruising is free too....In time it'll be for those w/ money alone.


no, try for it NOT to become a money thing. Try to keep the cost for the
drivers low. Politics, internet researching, phonecalls and legalization is on my
part... spent numerous hours of time this year and lots of € for Bitburg in the past
and for coming 2003 events out of my pocket already...
All I ask the drivers is thinking about the safety issue "before"
the modification, and that is what good drivers do anyhow?! The rules will
be mostly for some new coming crazy careless european racers (like some of
the netherland guys...?)

> quote: Sembach and Bitburg was fun. I think there should be rules but we are
the customer. There is some stupid rules out there. If you are serious then
apply comman sense and you will get the best of both worlds a fun and safe
event.

...is what I try to do, use common sense and same rules for everybody.

> quote: I think you will have problems getting this started. There is about 5
people on this board that would show up. I remember all the problems with
the helmet rule. Lets talk about inspection who is gonna do it and what
rules will apply. So this is something totally diffrent than OSL so what is
it? Now it is 300+ miles one way and get told I cant race because I do not
have a stupid yellow sticker that says whatever. Now if you decide what
rules make comman sense and could make a safe/ fun enviroment that would be
a start. However to just get on the board and say someone cant race in a
class because he is to fast or does not have a sticker is BS. I am not huffy
or puffy but if you think there will not be violaters of rules just because
there are rules your wrong. Rules/laws are made to be broken
ie speed limits are broken daily by most drivers. I am not saying it is
right to speed. Prohibition was another stupid law no-one can drink broken
by the same people that passed it. It comes down to getting caught and being
able to enforce rules fairly for everyone. I agree there should be rules for
safety and would be willing to help. But to lay down the law and point
fingers will get you no where with me. Not that I am above the rules or
laws. I plan to upgrade safety equipment before you guys told me just with
races being a week apart it is kinda hard to get a rollbar installed. Just A
reality check for ya.

1. This is nothing totally different than OSL. For most people it will
appear the same. You just will not have to race against a Stock BMW or Ricer
in your group at the bracket. In the grudge you can race who you want.
2. Do you want to do the inspections, Bruce?
3. If you forget your helmet, you can get a rental. And if you are short one
sticker, I can print you one. BTW: it is yellow! so it will match the
others... and you gain some hp...
4. I want common sence rules, a safe and FUN environment, in a familytype
athmosphere...
5. If you brake rules, don't tell anybody
6. Enforce rules fairly for everyone - my words.
7. I do not mean to point fingers. Did I? I knew you were planning on a cage
already... I do read other threads. That is why I am not even worried about
you. It is the ones following after you.
8. We are not one week apart from a race... or do I miss out on something
here???

> quote: OK, I don't know what the plan is here, but it does appear that
things are getting a little confusing. That's the problem with non-direct
correspondence, it's hard to tell the serious items from the joking ones (no
visual feedback). Would it be possible to set up a meeting and just talk out
some of the thoughts and ideas concerning test & tune and racing for next
year? I for one would like a chance to get in a little more racing than I
did last year. I'm not very confident about OSL's prospects for next year
(at least in Germany), and if someone else is willing to give it a shot I'm
willing to listen. Things don't happen by themselves, whether it's time,
sweat, money or something else, everyone can participate. Can we work on
establishing a common goal and then determining how we're going to get
there?

Yes we can have a meeting and talk about the thoughts and concerns.

> quote: Garry for your information I've got every safety feature on the car minus
the cage. You haven't seen the car in months so how could you know.
My car IS the safests out of everyones right now guaranteed. I didn't build it up
for the sake of going fast alone. I want to survive in the event I do make a mistake.

Good thoughts! and nice to know and another one not to worry about...

> quote: Maybe you took it the wrong way but the whole purpose is to have fun I
understand the safety issues. However once folks start seeing how they have
to keep dumpin money to do this it'll take the thrill factor out of it quick
and it will be left to those WHO do have cash. That's why illegals are the
best thing goin even though not the safest. Run what ya brung period take
the lumps at your own risk.

It is never only your own risk. If you run what you brung and blow up
at the track, for you it may be your own risk... but what if there is a spectator, or
the other driver racing against you, or just property damage ???
As said before, if you f.e. have big money to put in mods but no change for safety,
then do not mod.

> quote: Stateside? Not concerned w/ it. I'm not there. But when I do return
it'll be a trailor queen or a true light to light warrior because it's too damn
expensive to run tracks back home (talking road tracks). 1/4 tracks too long
of a damn line to wait just to run 11 secs. IMO

Then you really should take the chance to run here and have fun.

> quote: Squirl. Good luck because Bruce is right for the most part. Nothing is
impossible however but you have to look at from the point drag racing has
been around even over here. The question is why hasn't it taken off if it's
so fun to do in the 1st place? This should've been around before our time
instead of it now trying to take off.

Because... everybody was doing it for their very own interest only? Whenever
the group of americans was gone the track and the races was gone?

> quote: The street scene is getting bigger because of all the rules to race over
here. For instance any Friday night in N/burg 500+ cars never had that many
at a OSL event. If you think they have there mods listed in the
fahrzuegbrief your wrong.

That is why I try to implement a new standard of rules for the Test&Tune so
that it will get accepted because of making sense... but not beeing to tight.
I know them kids do not have everything in the Title book but they should have.
And you are trying to say who cares? Sorry but that does not sound like a
responsible thinking adult to me...you should lead to the good, not give a
bad sample.

sorry for that length.

OK. Round two has started!

Maybe you folks should just stop worrying or complaining until the rules are set ...

thats all what i can say to this thread i mean rules are rules and when somebody dont wanne hang with them he dont need to come.This is germany so you all need to hang with german rules.And there will be every time some racers who wanne race so i dont think because they who dont like the rules are not more coming that osl or other events going down.


Michael

I am not getting worked up here just let us know when and where. Post all the rules up front then we know. We are currently speculating no good. gets everybody all worked up. I can inspect cars if needed.

I dont see myself coming to alot of events next year after this winter. I have a few saftey items in but I will never put a cage in my car or a 5-point harness, even if my car went 8's.

I have been to the track in the states(friday nights, saturdays run what you brung Cecil County Dragway in MD). Unless you are running in a tight bracket class they dont check for all that stuff. I have seen cars run 10's wheels up,and have no cage, window nets, 5-pt harness, fire suits ect. All I seen that the majority of them run was a helmet a master off switch and a DS loop.

Hell, I was running 13.000 @109mph back then,they never asked me for a helmet.

If you are running this over here in Germany by all means enforce German rules, they are for saftey and the well being of all, but this is coming to a money issue that will be forcing people out on the streets, I will probably be one of them. We will see...

Jeff with 13.000 you will never need a cage or 5-point-harness...
and on the street you will never get your time-slip hehe!

Isn't this much more fun to discuss than calling each other names?
Come on, not more comments?
I like this, I like to be the opposite on discussions.

Hm... question to all: what do you think about a long
4-July weekend from Thursday night through Sunday evening (4 July is a Friday) with all kind of fun around motorsports: racing, racing, racing, show and shine,
auto-x, burnout show, sale-and-trade-corner, gokarts for the kids and maybe even beautysaloon for the women? hm, I even got a few pretty girls around 20 making a nice team for foto-sessions with the cars in mini skirts (strip show?), a PA system, two different magazines and a TV station interested, music band...

just on the races you really would need to wear those helmets. hell, I do hate them myself, but I can't help it...

Strip show? Damn Squirella I like you. That'd be a seller in itself. Too many wives though would get mad though and that would be the 1st and last time some would get to attend. LOL

Allways did like a good Table Dance!!

They should have Table Dancers at Wal Marts!

Well... guess there'd just have to be some eye candy for the wives, too ....

Great, I like that idea!

Ben

hm, could have few men in between the girls than the wifes won't complain... like Garry suggested.
Or we could make a men's night and a women's night.
On the other hand, we could serve the women free drinks both nights... then they will be tipsy, happy, and the men get what they want?
ohhh, I am soo bad ...and I like it!