F-Body Europe

I told myself that this would be a dumb thing to post since I would know the answers I got before you gave them, but here goes. Ray the half owner of the chasis shop I go to offered to trade me cars. He just traded his old car for the new/old one, but he doesnt want to build it, because he is building a 25.3c car now and doesnt want to do another back half.

Why would he do that? Not sure myself, but he would want to drive mine daily (which it would do, no problem).

Now, before you answer I would appreciate it if you looked at things thru my world.

1. I really want to go racing
2. I want to be competive (no brackets...strictly heads up)
3. I need to keep prices in or under the stratosphere, not thru it.

He brought up some good points, and I'm thinking about them. One of them was...how much the car is worth. I honestly answered him its worth more in parts than as a whole. I figure 6-7k. Two what will it cost to get it to do what I want? Another good question with a very scary $$$ I figure 20k for starters.

The cars in question are a 87 black notchback that already has a built chrome moly fab 9 (moser extreme throughout) Certified 8 pt mild steel cage. Aerospace brakes on all 4 corners. UPR chrome moly K-member. The rear has been totally built with drag double anti-roll, chrome moly lca.
Tranny is either a manual 4spd or a built glide (I cant remember if they swapped tranny's) alot of other nick nacks that i cant remember, and it is set up for 1/4 ala fuel cell, twin 16volts in the rear, chute. yada yada.

my car most people know, but here it is:
Engine

CNC LT4 heads 2.02 Int 1.60 Exh
LT4 Intake
Pro Mag 1.6 RR
Comp Cams 224/230 112lsa
Probe 10:1 forged pistons
Vortech S Trim
Vortech Aftercooler
Vortech T-Rex fuel pump
Crane HI 6tr w/boost controller
Meizere waterpump
Hurst Roll control
Lucas 48# Injectors


Tranny

B&M ripper shifter
Energy Tranny mount
SPEC stage III ceramic clutch
SPEC aluminum flywheel
4.10 GM motive gears
Aluminum Drive shaft
T/A rear end cover

Exhaust

FLP ceramic coated 1 ¾ Long tube headers
FLP off-road pipes
Flowmaster Cat back


Suspension

QA1 f/r 12 way shocks
Eibach drag springs w/ RR air bag
Hotchkis f/r sway bars
Hotchkis strut tower brace
Hotchkis LCA’s
Global West adjustable torque arm
Wolfe Racecraft 6 pt roll cage (mild steel)

and some other bs that isnt on the car that i could sell to make some mod money like a TNT F1 Wet kit, various pumps/controllers/suspension/exhaust components.

Now the hard part. Forget your bias if you have any, and try to focus on my dilema. I think its a fairly good trade, and one I could live with. Either way, neither car is gonna be on the highway ever again, so its not a question of looks/resale or any of that.

Which car has more potential? Which car is cheaper to build/maintain? Stay in the bed I made, or get out while the gettings good? These are my issues.

If you have a objective opinion please let me hear it.
Rob

If you want a race car then get it. what do you have for a motor for the ford?

Sounds like a great race car. You can't beat a well set up chasis. The front to rear weight ratio of a mustang is better than a camaro. They are lighter and the engine is easier to access. Now just put a Big Block Chevy in with a big shot of Nitrous and run in the 9's.

Actually the motor that was in it was a Keith Craft 331. It ran 10.15 NA.

Hawk there is no motor. The car is a roller with tranny. I would be putting in a DSS super bullet 306, or a Keith Craft. I dont want to go all out to begin with. I would like to run a season on a 11.0 index (you should run .5 under your index to have a shot). I know that is bracket style also, but I need to cut my teeth. If I dont get it crossed up and kill myself then we will drop in some Yates power, get a competition license and comense to get embarresed

Rob I don't know what to tell. Just follow your dreams dude that's about the best advice I have to offer.

Thanks John, thats probably the best advice.

The problem I'm fighting with is I went every direction possible for the car. First I wanted the look, then I wanted a handling car, then it was a triple threat, then a drag...........

I have the power to run mid 10's now hooked to a 12 sec chassis.

The suspension can be sorted out ...Look what overton has done, pushed it down to 9.30's or so (absolutely freaking amazing btw).

I'm still playing around with this, and nothings for sure. Yeah it would be to easy to jump into a proven chassis, strap some power to it and let 'er rip. Only problem with it is I dont want a nitrous car. The power is in turbo's, (which I cant afford) so I choose to huff the power thru a centri.

The other option is to jump ship to a Gen 1 SBC, but what does that gain? The power can be made in a Gen 2. It all lies in the chassis and that damn stock 4 link of a fox body.

My biggest problem is i go to the track and I see Chris Derrick run 8 teens, Brandon Dominey run 8.03, Joe Flores run 8 teens all with small block fords on ten inch tireed stock suspended 87-93 foxes on a 3100lb weight limit. I wish i could relate them to ANY camaro except Gen 1's, but I cant, there are NONE. When the general went to a torque arm setup they effectively shot every 10.5 racer in the ass.

Now could I step up to outlaw? Sure, there is nothing wrong with a back half car. The problem is, now you need to run a 7.5 and you better be willing to put 6 digits in you ride, with a "oh BTW" the winners run in the 6's. Now you can see why I want to run true 10.5. The average 10.5 race pays 2k, so you can finance it once you get a competitive car. That is with a 16 car field.

In the end, nothing will probably change, and I will plug along with the 94 Albatross, but we will see

Hey Rob,

this is just my opinion. How many Fords did you see running those good times and how many Camaros?

You chose if you wanna be just another Ford that doesnt need so much work or a Camaro which has a nice body and needs more work but in the end it's something special.

But if you don't give a $hit bout look or "one-of-a-kind-feeling" and want a fully & only drag car then make the trade.

greetz

Vadim

One of a kind in a Camaro? Anyway, I can see your point and to a certain extent I agree with you. The bottom line to answer your question is. Both cars (or any for the matter) needs tons of work to run single digits. Now if you want to have fun and burn some rubber on the weekend then it doesnt matter whos camp you turn too. If you want to win then your choices get that much smaller.

Let me put it to you like this. Find me one single camaro/firebird in the world that is 3100-3300lbs on the stock style suspension that runs faster than 8.20 (or runs 8.20). You cant. No matter how much money you throw at it, it just wont do it. Sure as time marches on they will trim a tenth here or a hundreth there, but they have had almost 20 years to do it and it aint happened yet.

Dont get me wrong I wont get near that time for awhile (probably a long while) but knowing it is scienced out and can be done and is being done by hundreds of redneck shade tree mechanics is a nice thing to have in your mind.

I'm not bad mouthing my Z, I love it. I just want to do something good rather than look good doing something. I have not decided what to do, and no deals have been discussed beyond the cursory comments. This is just my ramblings.

I appreciate you guys being my sounding board.

RobH,
The reason these Mustangs run so fast on these small tires is because the R&D of the Mustang is years ahead of the Camaro. The Fox chassis came out in what, 1979 or somewhere around then? All the aftermarket suspension pieces are mostly bolt on as where we have to fabricate most of ours for the Camaros. I have a friend in Kentucky that runs a 1986, Notchback Mustang in the Outlaw 10.5 class. It runs a Big Block 481 Chevy with a butt load of nitrous. It is backed by a Jerico 4 speed tranny and a 9" rear end. The car is very competitive. Runs 5.60's in the 1/8th mile. Only real problem with the car is that it stands on the bumper most of the time. He just recently totaled the car in June at the track. Now, ironically he is building a 95 Camaro to run in the 10.5 class. Of course this will cost more money to build but it should go straighter and the aero dynamics is better. If you want to save money then the Mustang is the way to go. Good luck.

This is the offending car. I took these tonight while it was getting a parachute brace put on. I know it is dirty as hell and doesnt look like much, but it is what it is.



and here is the new shop. Ignore how it looks now, the wiring isnt even done for the welders. Only been in the building a couple of days.



Here is the newest project. This is Fred's (co-owner of shop) new baby pro mod aka the alky mouse. You dont hear it so much as you feel it running and man does that alcohal burn the eyes!!



Rob

RobH,
I know I will catch some crap for this but I would be all over that car. Rear disks, rear roll control, cage etc...Drop a strong engine in it and enjoy.

this is what I meant with "one-of-a-kind" http://www.aquaboro.com/img/ARE854167.wmv

does anyone know a faster run?

yeah, thats Wade. I believe they have the 2nd fastest LS1, the first being ronnie duke with a 8.52. He cant really improve it because I believe he is still in jail.

Wades car really hauls with that 422 in it, but the sad fact is that 8.5X is the "Worlds Fastest Fbody" thats not backhalved and 4 linked???!!!!

To put that in perspective Billy Glidden ran in the 7's on the new M/T Drag Radials!!!

Those guys are way out of my league, but if you know for a fact you are going to run into a brick wall at some point, it makes sense to change paths before you get there.

Dude, I'm not trying to debate with you. I can backhalf and blow my wifes Grand Cherokee into the 6's. I talk to the owners of 2 F bodies that run 6's every weekend I'm at the track, one nitrous and the other twins.

It can be done for sure, but not on my budget, and hasnt/HASNT/HAS NOT! been done faster than 8.52 to this very date on a stock style suspension car. It may very well be possible at some point in the future, but it is way more trouble than its worth.

If you look at someone in my position that wants to competitively race there is no argument. It would take 15-25k including the price of the car to get a fox in the 8's. Maybe cheaper if you dont care how rough/unsafe the car is. Go ahead take that figure added it to the 20K I've already spent on mine, then double it again to do it with a F body.

I dont have any data on the car on the magazine, but I would bet you dimes to doughnuts that it is a backhalfed/4 linked car that fits in no established racing rules. So what do you end up with? A car that you can go to the track and burn rubber on the weekends. Hell, I have that now!

I dont want to just drag people into this, but ask the european resident badass Hawk what it takes to run the ET's

Thanks for the posts, but enough.

I've gotta say go with the Fox body rob. Maybe I'm biased because I have a 91 stang, but since I got the car I've been researching it intensively. I bought it cause the price was right and I wanted a musclecar, but I'm happy as hell now that I've got it. If you are running in a class that requires stock rear suspension, the fbods just can't hang with a fox body. All the suspension really requires is a couple simple bolt ons, and you're good for 9s or better. The rest is simply finishing out the package. If you are wanting to be competitive and keep the costs down, definitely go with the fox. Shoot, one of the NMCA guys got a mustang into the 7s on BFG drag radials this year. That is an accomplishment, no matter how you look at it.

dood, I wasn't trying to convince you or smth. I was just looking for the fastest F-Body and didn't wanna open a new thread, capisci???

btw, did you ever get the money for the wheels? coz I never got an answer from you...

greetz

Vadim

Well, just to update. Looks like in the end I will keep soldiering on with the Z. If that means for the near term that I just have a so-so car, then so be it.

I just cant at this moment in time let it go. Who knows, it may be for the best anyway. So right now I'm coming up with a Gen 1 SBC configuration that I can race. I figure by the time I get that sourced and functional, the LT1 will need freshing up and I will have to either go big time with it, or sale it (the fuelie LT1 that is).

So back to the original plan

BTW Candyman, sorry about the no feedback, to be honest with you I havent checked until you said something. Yes the money came thru. Thank you very much and I hope you enjoy the wheels.

Well we agreed today. I have another mustang. Ended up paying $5500 for it.

I leave the camaro at the shop, and a couple people have expressed interest in it. When I told them what I was asking they didnt give me that "you've lost your f*c*ing mind!" look. So right now its on a TLC diet of fixing the little stuff (damn window motors) and cleaning. I'm gonna list it in autotrader next week.

I'll start a more fitting thread once I get it cleaned up and take some pictures of what will probably cause my death .

Robb